What did Jesus actually say?
On a recent blogging expedition (Titusonenine), a commenter posted a series of scripture verses that he claimed proved that Jesus indeed spoke on the subject of homosexuality.
Most people who support the full inclusion of gay people in the Church today will argue that Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. While I agree with that, the conclusion that, then, scripture cannot be used as a contributor to the pro or anti-inclusion argument cannot be made.
My response will be first, and then I will include the verses the commenter used.
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My response to Jim the Puritan (#29) -
Jim, the verses you quote are absolutely correct, but your assumption is that all forms of same-sex relationships fall within the definition of what is immoral, automatically. The verses themselves, and thus Jesus, say nothing specific about homosexuality. I disagree with you as you attempt to say that Jesus said anything about homosexuality as recorded in the Gospels of our Lord.
What many people are asking is why the assumption? Then, when we go to Scripture and in light of what has been learned about the homosexual condition over the last 100 years or so, they say that there has been a mistake in our very human interpretation of God's Holy Word with relation to homosexual people. They believe that a faithful biblical exegesis and hermeneutic of the few verses used to condemn all forms of same-sex relationships in light of all of Scripture cannot bear the weight of the argument against all forms of homosexual relationships. There has been a misinterpretation of Scripture, and the Tradition has supported this misinterpretation for a variety of reasons.
Even a growing number of Evangelical scholars are saying that there are great problems with the traditional interpretations, and many are changing their opinions. This isn't God’s Word changing - it remains the same always - but our human understanding of God's Holy Word. Is this the Holy Spirit casting new light on God's Word? Time will tell, but we need to remember Gamaliel's recommendation to the Sanhedrin as we work through these times.
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Jim the Puritan posted this:
Jim the Puritan Says:
February 5th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
"I don't find anywhere in Scripture where Jesus is talking about homosexuality as a sin," says the Rev. Kim Smith King, senior pastor of North Decatur Presbyterian Church in Atlanta and co-moderator of More Light Presbyterians, a group supporting gay clergy.
Matthew 10:
14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Matthew 11:
22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.
Luke 10:
11 Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near. 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
Luke 17:
28It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
I've never understood this assertion that Jesus didn't have a problem with homosexuality. If Jesus didn't have a problem with homosexuality, why did he repeatedly use it as the example of the results of sin?
And no, they were not destroyed because of "inhospitality." Every Jew then knew they were destroyed because of sexual perversion and immorality.
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
Most people who support the full inclusion of gay people in the Church today will argue that Jesus never said a word about homosexuality. While I agree with that, the conclusion that, then, scripture cannot be used as a contributor to the pro or anti-inclusion argument cannot be made.
My response will be first, and then I will include the verses the commenter used.
---
My response to Jim the Puritan (#29) -
Jim, the verses you quote are absolutely correct, but your assumption is that all forms of same-sex relationships fall within the definition of what is immoral, automatically. The verses themselves, and thus Jesus, say nothing specific about homosexuality. I disagree with you as you attempt to say that Jesus said anything about homosexuality as recorded in the Gospels of our Lord.
What many people are asking is why the assumption? Then, when we go to Scripture and in light of what has been learned about the homosexual condition over the last 100 years or so, they say that there has been a mistake in our very human interpretation of God's Holy Word with relation to homosexual people. They believe that a faithful biblical exegesis and hermeneutic of the few verses used to condemn all forms of same-sex relationships in light of all of Scripture cannot bear the weight of the argument against all forms of homosexual relationships. There has been a misinterpretation of Scripture, and the Tradition has supported this misinterpretation for a variety of reasons.
Even a growing number of Evangelical scholars are saying that there are great problems with the traditional interpretations, and many are changing their opinions. This isn't God’s Word changing - it remains the same always - but our human understanding of God's Holy Word. Is this the Holy Spirit casting new light on God's Word? Time will tell, but we need to remember Gamaliel's recommendation to the Sanhedrin as we work through these times.
-----
Jim the Puritan posted this:
Jim the Puritan Says:
February 5th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
"I don't find anywhere in Scripture where Jesus is talking about homosexuality as a sin," says the Rev. Kim Smith King, senior pastor of North Decatur Presbyterian Church in Atlanta and co-moderator of More Light Presbyterians, a group supporting gay clergy.
Matthew 10:
14If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.
Matthew 11:
22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.
Luke 10:
11 Even the dust of your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. Yet be sure of this: The kingdom of God is near. 12I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
Luke 17:
28It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
I've never understood this assertion that Jesus didn't have a problem with homosexuality. If Jesus didn't have a problem with homosexuality, why did he repeatedly use it as the example of the results of sin?
And no, they were not destroyed because of "inhospitality." Every Jew then knew they were destroyed because of sexual perversion and immorality.
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
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